Bold claim: can we save the climate by shrinking our economies? Since the 1960s, global GDP has surged and living standards have hit record highs. Yet carbon emissions have climbed even faster. For years, scientists and economists have wondered: is it possible to grow without overheating or polluting the planet? And as our climate grows more volatile, the need to answer this question only sharpens. In this episode, Madeleine Finlay speaks with two economists who challenge how we measure a country’s success. Nick Stern, a professor of economics and government at the London School of Economics and a proponent of green growth, champions growth that centers on green industries. Jason Hickel, a political economist and professor at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, supports degrowth—the idea of shrinking sectors of the economy that don’t contribute to social well-being or ecological health. He argues for redefining progress away from sheer expansion toward meaningful, sustainable outcomes.
But here’s where it gets controversial… If you redefine success to prioritize ecological and social goals over pure expansion, how would governments adjust policy, investment, and prosperity? This framing invites provocative questions: Do we sacrifice living standards in the short term for a healthier planet long term, or can we find a path that keeps people prosperous while reducing environmental impact? And is there a middle ground where growth is decoupled from emissions but still aligned with social equity? These are the kinds of tensions this conversation explores, inviting listeners to weigh competing visions of progress and to consider where they stand on the degrowth debate.
